GENERATION NEXT

Men’s fashion is under renovation. More than a few designers have abandoned the strict rules long dictated by corporate culture and created clothes that celebrate male beauty and attractive bodies. Times Fashion Editor Mimi Avins recently invited a quartet of hot young designers, all in town from New York to meet their customers at Bloomingdale’s, Beverly Center, to talk about the changing shape of menswear.

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Mimi Avins: How do men learn to dress?

John Bartlett: I don’t think guys are raised to think about clothes. Men don’t want to draw attention to themselves through their clothing. Slowly, that’s changing, but guys are still really awkward about it.

Avins: How much guidance do they want?

Gene Meyer: I think men do want guidance now. They are more interested in fashion because they have to compete in the business world against women for the same jobs, and the age thing comes into play. They’re concerned about looking younger.

Edward Pavlick: Men are also much more aware of fashion. They’re seeing more designers offering different types of menswear. Men, in general, are kind of creatures of habit. They know what they like and they know what’s worked for them in the past, but they know that there are other options now.

Avins: Other options?

Pavlick: Maybe it’s because we live in New York, but we see more and more people wearing more sportswear to the office, and more people trying alternatives to the classic suit. You see men wearing clothes meant for active sports just around the city.

Avins: Who in the public eye influences style?

Pavlick: Musicians, more than any other group. Bush, Oasis, David Bowie, Mick Jagger, Dylan. You name it.

Richard Bengtsson: All these musicians usually have great personal style. Whether it’s ugly or not, it’s distinctive.

Pavlick: They put it together in their own way, and I think that’s one of the best things happening with menswear. I’m noticing more experimenting. I’m not sure why.

Meyer: I think the music world has taught men to be sexy, and to wear clothes in a sexy way, which didn’t exist before.

Bartlett: A lot of the rock stars are sort of ambisexual and pansexual. They’re the ones who really mix the female and male.

Avins: And that’s been true for a long time. How old are Jagger and Bowie?

Pavlick: You’re seeing more and more bands doing that. Like Tricky.

Bengtsson: Even Kurt Cobain. He used to be onstage with a dress and wear a bra and everything.

Meyer: His personality was even a little feminine sometimes, and it was sort of charming.

Avins: Are there two kinds of clothes, one for straight men and one for gay men?

Meyer: We’re always asking ourselves that.

Bartlett: In menswear, you’re designing for an ideal male, and all kinds of gay undertones come into that. It’s that male worship thing.

Bengtsson: In the past, if a guy had style or was well dressed, he was usually gay. That’s changing. There used to be a gay camp look. Now it’s become a straight camp look: really short hair, buffed muscles, tight T-shirts and work boots. Now, at least in New York, you see so many straight guys looking like that. The stigma of being gay or looking gay isn’t as strong.

Meyer: You can go into a club in any big city, and you don’t know if a guy is straight or gay by his dress. He’s going to have a great body, a tight shirt. Initially you might think he’s gay, then you find out he’s with his girlfriend or his wife.

Bengtsson: And the girl wants to have a good-looking boyfriend.

Meyer: The younger generation has grown up with the idea that the male can be sexy. . . . Look at all the kids who’ve been raised on Calvin Klein advertising. That has been a major force in this change, because it presented the male body as an object to be admired.

Pavlick: And on television, there was that Diet Coke commercial in which the women were looking at the construction worker. That’s a very good example of mainstream idolizing of men.

Avins: But it’s OK for women to admire a hunky guy.

Pavlick: But there were also men who thought, “That’s a nice body.”

Meyer: And others who thought, “If women like that, I’d better get with the program.” But I think for a younger generation, it’s very normal for straight men to be more conscious of their bodies, and of other men’s.

Pavlick: As a designer, I don’t think about it. I don’t sit down and say, “I’m going to do a gay look now.” It’s not about that for me. I don’t think it’s so unique to be gay anymore, so I don’t think it matters.

Avins: At one time, if a man dressed a certain way, he might have been pegged as a homosexual, and that would be a big deal. Now, who cares?

Pavlick: I think lots of people still care, but it’s less and less. And you definitely see a crossing over of styles. Gay men you see dressing down more. They’re not so flamboyant. And you’re seeing more straight men dressing more flamboyantly. Times change and attitudes change. . . .

Avins: The carry-over to fashion is, if it’s OK for men to have great bodies, then it’s OK for them to buy clothes to show that.

Bartlett: If you go to Hong Kong, all of the kids are so into clothes that it’s not about straight or gay. They’re just so into [fashion], and they study it and they’re absorbed and fascinated. Here, it’s like the gay guys are more into clothes, and being fashionable is more associated with women.

Pavlick: Somebody told me about a game on the Internet with pictures of men, in the 20- to 25-year-old range, wearing leather pants. You had to guess whether they were European or gay. In Europe, no one even thinks about someone’s sexuality, no matter what they’re wearing. But here, most people would draw a conclusion based partly on dress.

Bartlett: For menswear, if it looks at all feminine, people are turned off.

Avins: What would be thought of as feminine? Certain colors?

Bartlett: A twin set. There are certain things from women’s fashion that I think we’ve all played with, that don’t go over. . . . You can’t do an off-the-shoulder top.

Pavlick: Even jeans, which are unisex, can be very feminine if cut a certain way.

Meyer: There are things we might think of as too feminine, and three years from now, all the straight guys will have it on. We’re deconstructing myths right now.

Avins: How age-segmented is menswear?

Bartlett: I think the person who buys a Donna Karan suit is older. And I think her marketing is smart because she shows older men in her ads. And the cut is such that it’s not clean to the body. So lots of older gentlemen would feel comfortable going in that direction. . . . We design for people who have a young spirit, and they do tend to be younger. The problem is, the younger guys may not be able to afford the clothes. And that’s the age-old problem in this industry.

Meyer: It’s the biggest lie in this industry, especially among [the more expensive] European companies. They cater to a 25-year-old, and the suit’s $2,200. Where’s the reality in that? If I’m thinking I want to dress a 25-year-old, then I really want to see him in it. . . . If we price a jacket for $350 and the pants for $175, and it looks nice, it’s going to sell more than the suit that’s $800.

Avins: Let’s talk about shapes. It seems the cuts have gotten leaner, closer to the body, in contrast to the looser Armani influence. Are those two silhouettes coexisting?

Bartlett: For spring, we all did something very close to the body and slim. And slowly things are loosening up; lots of [designers] showed wider pants, but maybe with a really snug top. I don’t think anybody’s ready to go back to that ‘80s sloppy, slouchy look.

Avins: If somebody wears ‘80s slouchy, do they look wrong, out of touch?

Pavlick: It depends. At this time in fashion, there’s a lot of opportunity to mix things: vintage with brand, spanking new with a favorite thing you’ve had since high school. Whether it all works depends on the person and his character, whether he’s strong enough to pull that off.

Bartlett: When I first moved to New York, I interviewed at different fashion companies in my navy blazer, my charcoal pants, my white shirt and rep tie. At Calvin Klein, the interviewer said, “Well, you’re a perfect example of why men need to change. I mean, look what you’re wearing.” I thought I had on the perfect interview suit. . . . Of course, I don’t own any of those things anymore.

Meyer: It can work against you in a lot of job situations if you’re too dull. They want a little more zip. They want to see, does this person have an imagination? If you hide behind the uniforms, no one can see what’s going on in your mind.

Bartlett: The greatest thing is when a guy dresses in a way that lets his own individuality come through. A lot of people design very minimally, so that can come through, or they design with humor, so a great piece can go with khakis the guy has been wearing forever.

Pavlick: Fashion should never mask who you are. It should enhance it. . . . When there’s a funny-colored T-shirt poking through the collar of a classic button-down shirt or maybe the right track sneakers with a suit, it’s a window into the personality.

Avins: Which menswear designers have been influential?

Bartlett: Helmut Lang, for about the last five years. He’s really interesting, yet he doesn’t change much. He always does the same jacket, the same pants, with very subtle changes in detail. The message is about fabric and understatement.

Pavlick: He does uniform-like looks. And he plays with color a bit. It isn’t a dry kind of minimalism. It’s always a little off to the side. This is a Helmut Lang jacket [taps his chest], and you can buy [a facsimile of] the same jacket at Kmart for $12. His is $600. It’s polyurethane with snaps, your classic Windbreaker. But the fabric takes it to another level. I actually have one from Kmart. . . . It’s different, yes, but wonderful--even more lightweight and almost more functional, because [the Lang jacket] cracks eventually.

Bengtsson: That’s what we all do. We take a silhouette that’s familiar, and then, depending on the color and the fabric and the cut, it becomes something special.

Avins: If men want to improve their dress, they should try on more things and experiment?

Pavlick: Absolutely. Part of our problem, at times, with very basic pieces is they’re so simplified that they might not look good on a hanger. The body is so important. The minute you put it on, then you realize how beautiful it actually can be. It needs the body to give it structure and form.

PHOTO CREDIT:

Photos of designers by FINA FERAZZI / Los Angeles Times; runway photos by CORINA LECCA / For The Times

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